The Voices of Reason

Earlier today I was on the NKT Truth Blog run by wisdomfire and I noticed a link to a video I had seen a while ago, just interviews with Dorje Shugden practitioners about why Dorje Shugden is so important to them.  I watched the video again and it’s so beautiful that I have to draw your attention to it!

It’s so sad how the Dalai Lama and his students have demonized Shugden practice as a cult and practitioners as demon worshippers.   For example, quite topically given Robert Thurman’s challenge by the Western Shugden Society to justify his views, Thurman said in Newsweek in 1997:

“It would not be unfair to call Shugdens the Taliban of Tibetan Buddhism,” says Thurman, referring to the Muslim extremists of Afghanistan, who believe in swift and brutal justice.

“Shugden appeals to crazies by offering instant gratification,” says Thurman. “Once you get involved, you’re told you have to devote your lives to the cult, because the god gets very angry if you don’t attend to him every day. It’s really bad stuff, the way they’re draining money out of people.”

These are unbelievably unfair and inaccurate comments.  It makes you wonder if Bob had ever met a Dorje Shugden practitioner at all.

Now, keeping these comments in mind, watch the video below and make up your own mind.

The sincerity, reasonableness, devotion and ‘down to earthness’ of these people shines through.  These are ordinary people who choose to rely upon the Wisdom Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden to benefit themselves and others, not crazies seeking instant gratification!

I found this video beautiful and inspiring, I hope you enjoyed it!

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7 thoughts on “The Voices of Reason

  1. Thanks for posting this video. I often wonder too if Bob Thurman could possibly have ever met a Dorje Shugden practitioner … thing is, though, he has met plenty in his time, including his beloved Dalai Lama, and Domo Geshe and Trijang Rinpoche and many others — and yet although I doubt he would say a bad word about any of these masters if pressed, he can still say the most inane and wacky things about them in the context of their being Dorje Shugden practitioners.

    He is basically calling Trijang Dorjechang et al the “Taliban” and “crazies”. He would never have the disrespect to say it to their faces but he is saying it obliquely in Newsweek, backing it up with no evidence, of course, because there is none.

    It is amazing that no one has ever called him up on these comments before. They are irresponsible, offensive and, frankly, the most ridiculous things that could be said about these great masters.

    I am glad the Western Shugden Society is asking Bob Thurman to defend these comments now. Given the power of his celebrity, famous daughter and close ties to the Dalai Lama, he has managed to do a lot of damage to the reputation of a beautiful tradition and some of Tibet’s most respected masters. I hope one day he sees this and makes amends.

  2. Good points, Geoff, thank you. You’re right – I wonder if Bob realizes how many great Masters he defames by calling Shugden practitioners ‘crazies’ and ‘the Taliban’?

    I wonder if he really believes in karma?

    I do hope he regrets, retracts and makes amends for his sake and the sake of all sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners everywhere.

  3. The video invoked a rememberance of Tomo Geshe Rinpoche[ or Dr. Jigme, as he like to refer to himself],H.H. Dagom Rinpoche,Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, Geshe Rabten, Zong Rinpoche and Gonsar Tulku as their Protectorate with the complete devotion of the Oarsman keeping the boat afloat,Helmut Gassner. All incredibly sweet and compassionate people.
    I’ve never met Pabongaba Rinpoche nor Ling Rinpoche

    All devoted Masters serving the dharma.

    I was, for lack of a better word, privleged to host their visits to Bloomington,Indiana and consecrated the First Je T’song Khapa Monastery in the west following the Tradition and Protected by Lord Dorje Shugden, Forever!

    The intensity of these Masters that pervaded my life for months upon months. Gonsar Tulku and Dagom Rinpoche spread the Dharma till the walls of my home seemed to be breathing on it’s own.

    The beauty of Trijang, Zong Rinpoches with Little Geshe Rabten was to beautiful to describe. Little Geshe Rabten serving tea with one lump or two as 40-45 were chanting 10,000 mantras a day. Went on for 10 days., all day long and into the evening,voices sang as one incredibly beautiful melodic song.

    The rapture and love from these Master’s are beyond,So beyond the yick that dalia lama sounds with his putrid song.

    The differnce is as day and night. I’ve sat with the Dalia Lama in a group no bigger than 10 for days on end. It was so bone dry by comparison, the essence was not there It is true for me anyway. I can say with all sincerity and truth about DL,
    ” kicked the tires and found his path flat.”

    I listened to the people in the video and I remembered what it was and will be again. Without the fear and anxieties, it will be like walking unharmed,through a pane glass door

    I helped to Protect them,as they were young and I took my responsibilty very seriously to keep the Dalia Lama from harming these Living Treasures. That we all are blessed to have here with us at the precarious and dangerous time as the Wheel Of Dharma Turns to the West! Where it can flourish protected by our law. This law is that each and everyone of us as a Right to say and believe as we choose without fear of molestation and the right to defend our beliefs should any try to challenge and attempt to take it from us.
    We, Vajra Warriors of Shambala,shine as Nine Billion Vajra Hammers resounding in a Deep Drumbeat that Love is Here!Shining in each of us is an inner calm that protects us from the Raging Storm as We,sail through choppy waters,
    But We,can see as,Watchers For The Dawn. There it is,the brillant beam of light. Be calm, Stay still, The Stream is Clearing and All Is Well!

  4. The Knight

    Trouble in Paradise
    Will Spisak
    Issue date: 9/25/08 Section: Religion

    In the thick heat of July, a crowd of protestors gathered outside Radio City Music Hall. Inside, the exiled leader of the Tibetan people, the Dalai Lama, was speaking to followers concerning the four noble truths of Buddhism. After the discussion, the followers were confronted by a small contingent of Western Buddhists outside the building, holding signs and chanting “the Dalai Lama is lying” and “we demand religious freedom.” It was not long before the Dalai Lama’s faithful clashed with the protestors, verbally and physically. The NYPD was needed to break up the confrontation.

    Onlookers and pedestrians assumed the conflict had to do with the Chinese and the issue of Tibetan independence. In reality, the clash was the result of an internal theological conflict. Recently, a split has occurred within Tibetan Buddhism concerning a particular deity, Dorge Shugden.

    The protestors were practitioners of Kadampa Buddhism, a particular tradition within Mahayana Buddhism that believes Dorge Shugden is a Buddha, or an enlightened being. Kadampa Buddhists, led by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, claim that the Dalai Lama is trying to end their particular religious tradition and has resorted to tyrannical tactics to do so. The Western Shugden Society has made the claim that “…monks and nuns are…expelled from their monasteries…people who refuse to renounce [Dorge Shugden] are losing their jobs and their children are being expelled from schools…”

    The Dalai Lama rejects these claims. The exiled leader acknowledges he has denounced the veneration of this particular deity, who he regards as a harmful spirit and associates with sectarianism. He is attempting to unite the sects of Tibetan Buddhism to create a more effective singular entity, but claims that if one wishes to continue practicing this particular tradition, they can, but they should no longer associate with him

    In regards to the particular practice, most individuals here in the West are probably indifferent. So why do I think you need to know about this issue? Although the situation at the moment is hardly what we can call a sectarian rift, it certainly has the potential of becoming one. Many individuals have begun making outrageous claims that have done nothing but added fuel to the fire. Robert Truman, an American Buddhist and scholar of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism at Columbia University, made a public statement referring to the followers of Shugden tradition as “the Buddhist Taliban.” Likewise, the Western Shugden Society has made the claim that the Dalai Lama is not really a Buddhist at all. Sectarianism has plagued many of the world’s religions. While Buddhism has its variations, for the most part, they have all accepted one another as legitimate paths to enlightenment. No one wants to see this debate escalate to the point where one side completely denounces the other as illegitimate Buddhism.

    The political undertones that surround Tibet make this issue all the more sensitive. With political, as well as religious, unity at stake, both sides have begun to ponder what a rift might mean for the future of Tibet. This presents a particular point of interest to the West. For decades, the Dalai Lama has been revered as a champion of peace and, as a result, we have developed a particular soft spot in our heart for him. However, if the claims made by the Western Shugden Society are true, and there is actual religious persecution occurring in Tibet and in the exiled communities, will the West be willing to confront our champion of peace on this issue? I am not suggesting that the claims are definite; however, if the problem persists and persecution becomes an undeniable reality, we will have to decide what is more valuable to us, a united Tibetan community able to reach an agreement with the Chinese or our basic belief in religious freedom.

  5. Be Reasonable Robert Thurman, and Debate This Schism With Freedom Loving People like myself.

    Robert Thurman,
    I challenge you to defend your lies!
    If you do not reply to me personally. Then you are all the things, I say of you. That you, Robert Thurman, are a Liar and Traitor to the Principles of Democracy and the dharma.

    We are not all perfect beings and this defeintely includes both of you, Tenzin Gyatso Norbu and Robert Thurman.

    Some of us realize that Tenzin Gyatso Norbu is a deceitful self cherishing incarnate of a Feudal War Lord, that slaughtered his own people to seize and maintain control of the different approaches to the Teachngs Of Lord Buddha.
    Some of us realize that he is the antithesis of a man who trampels daily by his ignorance or attempts to undermine the underpinning of the Bill Of Rights and Civil Liberties of the People.

    The Dharma Flourishes because, it has a home that respects and protects the rights of all to believe as they choose.

    This schism only magnified his abbhorrence of individual thought to reason and find the way to the truth that Lord Buddha taught to us.

    He prefers to lie and deceive and use the mouthpiece of Bob Thurman to validate his claims, that he actually speaks from the truth.

    They have no weapons to use against the WSS,or any of us!
    We,who are fighting to protect the rights of all People Everywhere, to Believe as They Choose.
    Why?
    Because, he has lied and violated the very principles,I’ve already mentioned.
    Justice they say is Blind. But not Blind to the Breaking of Our Laws. which keep us from the Darkness of Lawlessness.

    Nothing that has been said, can be disproved or proved within cetain disciplines.
    However, if enough people see the truth and think about it long enough. Then the truth will prevail.
    We did nothing to deserve this abuse, and he says nothing that justifies His Lies and Abuse to Those Suffering due to his activities to maintain his power base.
    He is not a Buddha, and Lies with the Ease of a Mississippi River Boat Gambler.
    Not all of us are scholars or well versed, but we have the common sense that Lord Buddha attributed to we mere mortals, to reason ourselves out of ignorance and find liberation one day.

    The only loss of credibility is his and Bob’s incessant lying and deception they spew from their mouths each and everyday.

    Only by the tenacious and continuous fortitude of each and every voice resonating with protest that he speak the truth. We expect even from the least of us.
    Lord Buddha by all accounts, fought against the status of deceit and lying of other intent to have their self cherishing lifestyles. Maintained by the suppression of others by perverting the truths and creating all manners of maras to keep it that way.

    This is a Democracy and not all voices may speak as you wish, but we speak with sincerity and a desire to eliminate ignorance and lies that hinder all from the seeking the way home safely.

    I hope they challenge any of us publically with a rational and logical defense of their actions and try to defend this insanity on the Global forum for All to Witness.

    If they had a leg to stand on, he would have courageously pursued it already.
    They have not, nor do they intend to confront you or me or anyone else directly.
    Instead they have Death Squads slinking down dark alley ways, and then have the audacity to point the finger at us.
    He cannot hold his own, unless he is speaking to his ‘Chorus of Supporters’.
    So, relax and let Democracy Protect Us from these Monsters.

    Even Hitler had his day. He was loved by the deluded and brainwashed, and you can see what eventually happened to them.

    As Dr, Bernis, who was in Munich during the bombing by the Allies in WWll, said. “Yes, Thom! We are grateful even for this tragedy. Imagine where we Germans and the world would be today, had Hitler had his way?”

    This is warfare, not a nuance of semantics and dialectics within the debate halls of a Nunnery or Monastery.
    We, The People, ill-versed and flawed, as we may be. Will fight on and on, until we defeat this monster and his mimmicks, who only care for personal power over others.

    Hey There! Tenzin Gyatos Norbu! It’s me, Thom Canada calling you and Bob out, to defend your lies.!
    See………………………………………..not a word of reply!

    Why? Because they are cowards and thieves of the dharma, and know to fear me and you and anyone else who shines the Light of Truth.

    We all attempt to say this truth with the sincerity of our hearts, and not the lies of a cheating mind portrayed by them

  6. Beautiful video. These people are obviously serious and sincere practitioners who have benefited greatly from their devotion to Dorje Shugden, and the related practices. The movie makes your point well.

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